MOS: Scout Sniper

Post here your ideas or full suggestions of MOS
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Billyum
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MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Billyum » Fri Feb 26, 2016 4:33 am

Unit Portrait and Quotes: Undecided, Thinking Warhound or Nova
Unlock: Undecided, Would like it to be in all three rank sets
Role: Hybrid of Long range DPS/Single target damage caster/Recon depending on build
Weapon: Sniper Rifle: [25% more damage than SDM, 25% slower attack speed than SDM, Base range 25, Magazine size 32]
Base Hp and move speed: Same as SDM
Skill list: Soldier Skills, Marksmanship, Scout Sniper Skills, Critical Targeting [Name work in progress], Precision Shot

Soldier Skills: MOS specific ability: Quick Reload [20% faster reload]

Marksmanship: Same

Scout Sniper Skills: Each level unlocks new skills and increases attack speed by 5% and range by 3, Each level increases attack speed while prone by an additional 5% and range by an additional 2

Level 1: Binos
Level 2: Field Camera
Level 3: Opportune Shot [Same as SDM's]
Level 4: Ghillie Suit (My original plan was for it to be an active skill that lowers your threat priority to the same as a civilian, meaning that Zombies would go after nearby team mates first so they have an easier time kiting. I am now rethinking how the skill would work and looking for suggestions).

Critical Targeting: (Name and stats still work in progress). Increases critical chance at the cost of energy and slows movement while active [think of it as suppressive fire only it increases crit chance instead of attack speed]. Each level has the same energy cost and movement loss as the equivalent level of suppressive fire [e.g. level 3 Critical Targeting has the same cost and movement loss as level 3 suppressive fire]. Does not reduce range like Rapid fire does.

Level 1: +12.5% crit chance while active
Level 2: +20% crit chance while active
Level 3: +27.5% crit chance while acitve
Level 4: +35% crit chance while active

Precision Shot: Focuses aim for a few seconds then fires a shot dealing heavy damage to a single target at up to 40 range. Each level of Marksmanship adds +500 damage.

Level 1: damage 2k, Cast time 3.2 secs, Energy cost 80, CD 60 secs
Level 2: damage 4k, Cast time 3 secs, Energy cost 75, CD 55 secs
Level 3: damage 6k Cast time 2.8 secs, Energy cost 70, CD 45 secs

Hotkeys list:
Critical Targeting: F
Precision Shot: R
Ghillie Suit: Z X

Final notes: As of right now I feel that this idea is only a framework at this point, Many of the stats need reworked. I am afraid that a late game sniper being augmented by a medic could be brokenly op. There is also the way that attack speed is calculated, Because the Scout Sniper has very low attack speed and very high damage it would receive a much bigger boost from attack speed and damage increasing items [Something I have come to call "Big Numbers"]. When I look at the stats individually they look fine, Its how they all fit together is what I am worried about. PMC mode is another issue, We're talking 52 range if you have maxed Scout Sniper Skills/Marksmanship, Improved Prone, And Hawk Eye. Expect many edits in the future as I continue working on stats.

Znimu
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Znimu » Fri Feb 26, 2016 8:00 am

Seems interesting, waiting for your improvements then.

Kami no Varou
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Kami no Varou » Fri Feb 26, 2016 9:39 pm

Sounds nice indeed, but it's really strange that Sniper and Scout are united under a same MoS - they are pretty much incompatibles, snipers is supposed to provide some cover from afar, where it's safe ; scouts are supposed to go ahead and provide informations on what's coming up.
I also find it strange to give him another sniper rifle different to SDM - unless I didn't get something ?
Overall, like I said on Combat Sniper topic, I'm totally for having a second sniper class but it shouldn't be redundant with actually existing SDM - even if SDM must be modified a bit to achieve so.
I totally dislike Precision Shot - and even more with the scout aspect of your MoS. First, compare it to a Javelin Gunner and a DPS class - AR or even SDM - and you'll find with actual stats it's useless. Second, if you're gonna be a scout, u'd rather want somethin fast to use and with some utility for your team - slow, root, stun, reveal, attack weakening, increase damage, something actually useful.
And why would you have an improved reload of all the MoS ? Sounds like a nonsense to me - I'd rather give it to the one that's in first-line.
Also I prefer my version of Critical Targeting than yours - slow AS as well as MS but gives 100% critical instead of just raising critical stat - but that's an unimportant detail though, and yours is very fine.

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Billyum
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Billyum » Sat Feb 27, 2016 5:21 am

Scout Snipers are an MOS within the US Marine Corps, Their primary role is long range support and their secondary role is reconnaissance [They can kill a target and then radio in to warn a nearby squad that the area isn't safe].

SDM's are not snipers and do not use sniper rifles, They use designated marksman rifles [An SDM is like a hybrid between a Standard Rifleman and a Sniper]. True snipers work in teams of two [One being the Shooter and the other being the Spotter], I've been thinking of giving the Scout Sniper a spotter drone that would follow him around and would add recon for the team in some way after a certain level of Scout Sniper Skills.

Are you saying that that stats on Precision Shot need to be better? The idea behind the Precision Shot tree is that you would fill a hybrid role of single target caster and dps [7 levels to max Precision Shot and Marksmanship and you would probably want at least 1 point into Scout Sniper Skills for the binos, Assuming you make it to level 11-13 you would have 3-5 more points for Soldier Skills, Scout Sniper Skills, or Critical Targeting]. When comparing the Scout Sniper to other dps classes keep in mind that the Scout Sniper has more range and can hybrid roles in ways that other dps classes can not.

I am fairly certain that the SDM has a five second reload time instead of four seconds like most classes, The Scout Sniper would also have five second reload time. Having it be 20% faster [Not even counting the bonus from each level of soldier skills] would bring it down to four seconds.

Here is what I have planned to change:
1. Switch Ghillie Suit to level 3 Scout Sniper Skills and Opportune Shot to level 4.
2. Ghillie Suit will lower threat priority like I said, Though it will only work while prone.
3. I'd like to give the Scout Sniper a small spotter drone, Not sure how to go about this.
4. With level 3 Scout Sniper Skills any team mate within 5 range of his drone will be able to see what the Scout Sniper's Binos can see.
5. The exp unlock should be the same as the SDM, Only you would also need the Combat action badge or the Sharpshooter medal and at least two other medals. Once unlocked you could use it under WO and CO as well as Enlisted.

Kami no Varou
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Kami no Varou » Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:37 pm

Alright, seems nice presented this way. I guess I've been wrong about scout and sniper not being compatible - although I'm not really considering a "Spotter" a "Scout".
And yeah, basically, Precision Shot has a pretty big coldown, takes time to use, has no AoE and doesn't even deal that much damage, so what's the point ? Javelin Gunner's AT Rocket has a huge range too, deal 3000-7500 damage in AoE and although I don't know its coldown I'm pretty sure it is lower. And thanks to AoE, even compared to huge late game DPS of some AR, u'll find it useful when comes groups of T1 - ie Hunters.
So yeah, Precision Shot quite sucks, and the time to cast makes it not even that effective against non-massive T1 since you only kill 1.
And yeah, I don't really makes the difference between SDM and a "real" sniper - SDM goes up to 40 range, has a base AS of 1.6 and huge damage (4-5 times more than rifle ?), how would you see a "real" sniper ? I always thought SDM was just the name given to snipers - but correct me if I'm wrong.

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Billyum
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Billyum » Sat Feb 27, 2016 8:15 pm

I just realized that forgot to factor in that dexterity increases spell damage, So if someone had max Precision shot, Marksmanship, The Whiz Kid SI, And 1-2 points in Soldier Skills [19-21 Dexterity] That would be 8k damage + 49-51% [Roughly 12k damage!]. I think you are right about the CD though, I'll probably lower the damage bonus that marksmanship gives as well as the skill's CD and energy cost. Another thing I should point out about the AT rocket/Precision Shot comparison is that once Precision shot is cast it would not miss [Even if Minerva jumped or Scorp charged away (I may change the skill a little bit so that it could miss in those situations)].

Think of an SDM as a basic rifleman that has better marksmanship training and is given a modified battle rifle or assault rifle [longer barrel, longer range sights, ect.]. SDMs have an effective range of about 250-800 meters, Snipers have an effective range of about 500-2000 meters [No I am not giving the Scout Sniper 90 range].
Last edited by Billyum on Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Billyum
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Billyum » Tue Mar 01, 2016 3:56 am

After much thought I have come up with some possible balance changes. I would like the Scout Sniper to have less dps and better recon/support, I would also like his base stats to better reflect his weapon.

Here is what I have planned to change:
1. Switch Ghillie Suit to level 3 Scout Sniper Skills and Opportune Shot to level 4.
2. Ghillie Suit will lower threat priority like I said, Though it will only work while prone.
3. Base range increased to 30 from 25, Deals 35% more damage than the SDM, attacks 35% slower than the SDM, Magazine size lowered to 30 from 32.
4. Scout Sniper skills will now no longer give +3 range, Though it will still give the +2 range while prone for each level.
5. Level 1 Scout Sniper Skills will also unlock the Spotter Drone, This drone will be permanently cloaked, Will not be attacked by zombies, Have twice as much hp as a field camera, And be controllable [Though if it moves more then 5 range away from the sniper it will automatically move back within range]. While the drone is within range 5 it will give the Sniper +3 range. {Energy Cost: 50, CD: 30 secs}
6. Level 2 Scout Sniper Skills will also improve the Spotter drone's buff to the Sniper from +3 range to +6, Also any Allie within 5 range of the drone is given +1 range [Including the Scout Sniper].
7. With level 3 Scout Sniper Skills any Allie within 5 range of his drone will be able to see what the Scout Sniper's Binos can see.
8. The exp unlock should be the same as the SDM, Only you would also need the Combat action badge or the Sharpshooter medal and at least two other medals. Once unlocked you could use it under WO and CO as well as Enlisted.
9. Precision Shot stats changed to:
Level 1: damage 2k, Cast time 3 secs, Energy cost 80, CD 45 secs
Level 2: damage 4k, Cast time 2.8 secs, Energy cost 75, CD 40 secs
Level 3: damage 6k Cast time 2.6 secs, Energy cost 70, CD 35 secs
Marksmanship will only add +200 damage per level.

The only thing that I am really worried about is that if the Scout Sniper attacks too slowly then you may not be able to get many shots off while Critical Targeting is active [Only lasts 8 secs].
Last edited by Billyum on Wed Mar 09, 2016 4:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Minato Arisato
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Minato Arisato » Tue Mar 01, 2016 4:20 am

Sounds like a fun class. can't wait to see it in action.
-AKA Shadow (Shadow of Darkness 78)
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Kami no Varou
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Kami no Varou » Tue Mar 01, 2016 5:59 pm

Alright, sounds nice. Yet a few comments :
1. Do your Scout Sniper really need 4 levels on Scout Sniper Skills and the Opportune Shot ability while he's not DPS oriented ?
2. So Ghullie Suit basically makes zombies target allies instead of you when there are allies around you ? Seems weird, why not simply put a cloak working only while prone and unmoving ? So you can position on a good area to support your team.
5. So, this drone can't move afar from you, and buff you and close allies ? Does that makes sense to you ? When I saw the Spotter Drone ability, I thought it was a wonderful idea ; when I saw what it was for you, I was disappointed. Basically, your gameplay resolve around being close to your mates with your drone, which isn't really Scout Sniper-ish.
(not to mention the within 5 range buff, while your drone can't get further than 5)
7. THAT's an awesome idea. Exactly what you would await for a Scout Sniper. To share priority targets location so you can work to take them down.
8. That sounds both complicated, hard to do and unnecessary. I mean, if u can unlock Cyborg, Prototype, Fire Support Specialist and regular Sniper(s) by classical mean, what makes your class so hard to unlock ?
9. I still think it's bad, but I'm not mainly here to discuss balance issue - I don't really care of values you gives it at first. But why do you want to make it a slow ability to use instead of a fast one ? It could be way more useful if it was a fast-paced ability - ie with no coldown and low energy cost you can spend the energy you need to kill potential issues your team is running against, which doesn't always mean massive.
And why would Whiz Kid increase this ability damage - does it involve explosives ?

I think you have great ideas and a great concept for a new MoS - although I wasn't really fond of it at start, u convinced me it was nice. But man, as I think of it, the gameplay has problems. For exemple, that whole Critical Targeting slot is quite out of place even if the idea's nice - do you realise how unworth is taking one point in Critical Targeting atm ? I mean, spending energy to get slowed and have +12.5% critial chance ? At least Suppressive Fire is actually doubling DPS - I deem your DPS increase varying between +11.11% and +33.33% depending on critical multiplier. (I know I said I don't care of values but I had to point it out ^^')
I think you're making it too complicated also - why would you need your drone to share binocculars ? Would it even make a big difference if all what your drone is doing you were doing it yourself ? (the buffs and things)

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Billyum
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Re: MOS: Scout Sniper

Postby Billyum » Wed Mar 02, 2016 4:57 am

1. I'm not sure if I understand the question, The reason why I switched them is because I was worried that people might not put four points into Scout Sniper Skills if they only needed 3 to unlock Opportune Shot. I think I may drop it down to level 3 along with Ghillie Suit and then have the level 4 Scout Sniper Skills unlock some awesome recon skills [Like allowing team mates to see your bino vision and a flying field camera drone].

2. I have two reasons why, First is that I don't want him to be able to shoot while cloaked. If he isn't able to shoot while cloaked then the cloak almost becomes a Risen and Glutton repellent [As many zombies are detectors]. The second is that it would create situations where a detector can be right next to the sniper but it will instead go after other team mates first. So say you have a gourmand coming after you and you have a team mate kiting zombies nearby, If you turn on the ghillie suit that gourmand will go for the person kiting even if there was no way they could get it's agro in time. It would make life easier for the person kiting because they wouldn't have to worry about losing agro on mobs. Think of it like the Sniper is so well hidden that enemies will go after what they can find instead of looking for the Sniper.

5. I think I agree with you on this, My idea was that the Sniper would need a drone to process ballistics data for him to make incredibly long range shots [Wind speed, Coriolis effect, gravity, ect.]. I pushed the idea further thinking that "If the sniper can benefit from the drone then why can't his squad mates too?". Now that I think of it, His ability to make such long range shots without a spotter can easily be explained away with "He has an advanced targeting computer". This would be better gameplay wise because it wouldn't be "Everyone huddle on the Spotter Drone!".

8. I don't see it as an issue of being easy/hard to unlock [Though maybe I should], I semi-copied the idea from Znimu's Prototype unlock and made it so that to unlock the Scout Sniper you would need to have either the Combat Action Badge or the Sharpshooter Medal [Both of which I see a new player struggling to get]. They would also need two other medals with it [Honestly a non factor]. I didn't want the medal requirement to be too high like "Earn Silver Star" because I don't want the requirement to feel "Elitist".

9. Whiz Kid effects "Spell" damage sourced from the player, This includes the Flamethrower's Fuel Discharge and the SDM's Mono Wire. Skills like Call for Fire and Rail gun have their damage source as US Army [Or in this case UT Army] and are therefor not effected by Whiz Kid. The reason why it is a "slow paced skill" is because I want to emphasize that the Sniper is aiming this shot very carefully [No Call of Duty no scope shenanigans], I don't think that Precision shot needs to be good vs hunter packs and such because the bonuses you get from marksmanship makes it so you would pretty much have to hybrid between single target caster and dps. This would mean that you are good vs single targets because of your Precision Shot and even better against single targets because of your attack damage to go with it.

I'll be the first to admit that math isn't my strong suit, There are a lot of things to factor in with Critical Targeting that I have trouble keeping track of. The strengths of it are that compared to attack speed, Critical chance does not have diminishing returns [Once you reach a certain point extra attack speed doesn't mater as much, Though as long as your critical chance is 100% or less there's no lost damage (Unless you count overkill damage)]. So say you get augmented by a medic and have a bunch of attack speed buffs stacked on you, Your critical chance could be much much stronger than attack speed because you would have fast attack speed and high critical chance instead of just a crazy amount of attack speed.

The downside [Which I think is bigger] is that compared to suppressive fire and rapid fire, Increasing attack speed also has the bonus of increasing how many crits you get [100 bullets with 12.5% crit chance would be less crits than 150 bullets with 12.5% crit chance due to shear number of bullets]. The values for the critical chance need to be improved in some way, I just don't know what they need to be to get the dps increase that compares to Rapid Fire and Suppress without inadvertently being better than them.

Thank you for your help on this Varou, Your suggestions have made this process a lot quicker.


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