New class : the Prototype

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Kami no Varou
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Kami no Varou » Fri Sep 02, 2016 10:20 am

T.R.O.L : I know, but your magnetic shield implies taking damage fast, being able to regenerate in combination to the Magnetic Shiel improves your supportive abilities - I also don't see any limitation preventing their simultaneous combined use, which I'm fine with, but makes it good in combination to Magnetic. On the other hand, you don't very often see medics playing tanks, do you ? Being able to regenerate doesn't make you a tank because it simply isn't effective - unless you can regenerate faster than you take damage, but that is to be doubted.

Energy : as opposed to Flamethrower and Cyborg, you can seemingly go up beyond 300 energy, so you can actually use more skills - it's as simple as that. You can chain some of your abilities before you run short on energy. IMO, if u add the battery, you pretty much don't have to care about energy as long as you have calm times to resplenish it (granted, it might not be the case in high difficulties).

Pull : well, I don't know. Seems like a good idea that you could make good use of and that could actually be good with Magnetic Shield - the later allows allies to tank while the first bring them to safety should they be surrounded.

Cyborg : Cyborg is nice but the values doesn't give justice to his possibilities. Remember my suggestion of progressive DPS-buffing while staying still ? (that I completely reversed by proposing a buff to the burst upon moving ^^') That'd fit him well and could actually motivate people using Stonewall Protocol or Stealth as it doesn't cost energy. But well, it wouldn't fit either a whole tree on its own. Cyborg problem is that going DPS is just more effective and doesn't combine well with using other abilities (mainly because he has energy draining pretty everywhere so if u attempt to combine two, u run low on energy too fast), so it's stuck playing AR-like. And it for sure is not easy to "fix". (I mean, I'm fine with it being a DPS but when half his abilities are barely used and everyone always play it the same way when he's supposed to be polyvalent, I assume there's an issue somewhere)

Indeed you didn't give much values (and I didn't look toward his DPS either, I assume you ajusted it on Suppressive Fire values (BTW I'm not sure why'd you make it different than Suppressive Fire for exactly the same result)).

I maintain that it shouldn't be efficient on close combat (improved rifle but, shockwave, x-ray, rocket-jump), at a distance (dps improvements, critical targeting) and at supporting (pull, magnetic, smoke) while in the same time having a boost to his own energy. All those abilities fit it nice, but there's a moment you should make a choice, that'd be for the best (you can also reduce his efficiency in every domain but that'd make it a bit frustrating).

My precognised solution is to move the Critical Targeting to the Cyborg (I know u like it =P) and focus on making him more close-combat oriented (but still not tank, like a kiter). And of course, still an efficient support. That'd make it more unique, more interesting and u have already given it good tools for it. But I guess it's not exactly how you imagined it in the first place, so up to you to bring it whatever gameplay you want.

EDIT : you might have noticed it but I'm not taking abilities independently, I'm realy looking at its overall gameplay and kit, cause I think that's what has been overlooked with Cyborg and I try to prevent the same happening - although the main issue is more like him eclipsing the Cyborg by just being better.

Znimu
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Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Znimu » Fri Sep 02, 2016 11:25 am

The Cyborg is already a very decent class. We can speak about him in a topic dedicated to him if you want.
But here we speak about the Prototype, it is a serious forum here :frime:

You don't take into account what I said about Critical Targetting. I still need testing, but it is obviously very less efficient than the Burst Fire of the Cyborg.
Anyways I don't want to balance the Prototype checking only the Cyborg, I have to consider every classes. Particularly as the Cyborg will be reworked in february 2026 (kiding, I don't know when).

About the Cyborg, right now, he gets his full offensive power with Agi 3 + Burst Fire 4.
A Prototype lvl 7 won't be able to be as polyvalent as you think. Don't consider a Prototype lvl 18, it will almost never happen.

Kami no Varou
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Kami no Varou » Fri Sep 02, 2016 12:13 pm

Well comparing a class with the closest one existing doesn't look a bad idea to me. But I mentionned Flamethrower too :modo:
I don't account for a level 18 prototype, I say that the extras you get after level 7 are much more useful for Prototype than for Cyborg. Now, if you're not as efficient as the Cyborg (which I assumed), I guess it's fine. That's gonna make the Prototype more T3-slaying oriented is u consider critical penetration. Makes it interesting though.

Alright, I guess we'll see what it gives but it sounds nice. Could his smoke grenades be mounted ? (he'd have a smoke grenade-launcher)

Znimu
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Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Znimu » Fri Sep 02, 2016 1:53 pm

A smoke grenade launcher seems a good idea for the improved smoke grenade.

I had hard time today with the hook. It works, the unit is hooked, but even after 3 hours testing everything possible, I have not succeeded to make the rope :triste2:

Kami no Varou
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Kami no Varou » Fri Sep 02, 2016 3:02 pm

cannot use the beta-LotV terran melee unit hook and reverse it ? (yeah, I have no idea how works SC2 editor so maybe it's dumb but in case u could)

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Billyum
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Joined: Fri Feb 05, 2016 5:15 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Billyum » Sat Sep 03, 2016 6:04 am

Znimu wrote:But what about the pull ? ^^'

Roadhog MOS confirmed?

Znimu wrote:You don't take into account what I said about Critical Targetting. I still need testing, but it is obviously very less efficient than the Burst Fire of the Cyborg.

This is part of the reason why I suggested the Smart Gun as his weapon, It wouldn't have a burst rate and because it has a higher attack speed with only one projectile per attack he wouldn't gain more dps than normal from having other classes give him attack speed buffs while he uses critical targeting.
Kami no Varou wrote:although the main issue is more like him eclipsing the Cyborg by just being better.

Znimu wrote:About the Cyborg, right now, he gets his full offensive power with Agi 3 + Burst Fire 4.
A Prototype lvl 7 won't be able to be as polyvalent as you think.

How I see it is if you compare a Cyborg with 3 Agi, 4 Suppress, and 3 Strength with a Prototype that has 3 Cybernetics, 4 Critical Targeting, and 3 Titanium Skeleton then the Cyborg would be better. So I see people playing dps Prototype with 3 Cyb, 4 CT, and 3 Optimized Capacitors. The Prototype would have support skills with dps where the Cyborg would have Survival skills with dps. (Note: now that the Prototype no longer has Energy Transfer I don't think this logic holds up anymore...)

In terms of tanking, The flamethrower is (overall) better at tanking zombies while the Cyborg is (overall) better at tanking PMCs. The Prototype has a lot of skills that from the looks of it have to be used in combination to have full effect and it looks like you would need to be level 9 to unlock both Magnetic Shield and T.R.O.L Protocol, I'm not sure how it would change the metagame other than being amazing for protecting NPCs and people with single digit apm. I would have to see it in action to get a better idea of how effective it would be.

Znimu wrote:Optimized Capacitors :
Activates the energetic stance of the Prototype. Improves mechanical by 3 per level.

1 - Jam immunity (passive always activated, even if Optimized Capacitors is not activated)
2 - Smoke grenade
3 - X-ray (immune to smoke grenades)
- Improved smoke grenade (bigger area of effect)
- Emergency Battery : With cybernetics 3 activated, the prototype will charge his emergency battery if his energy reaches the maximum of energy of his suit. Then he can use this battery anytime, even without Cybernetics activated, to get 100 energy (amount to balance).


I'll say again that I really don't think that Smoke grenade fits the theme of an "Energy Based" skill tree. I know that it would be used almost exclusively with the X-ray visor, It would just fit so much better in another skill tree like Titanium Skeleton or your "Unknown" 5th tree.

The Jam immunity passive seems kind of strange in that it's active even when the stance isn't. I think it takes away from the concept of the prototype having stances in the first place. It might perhaps be better placed as a passive for maxing Cybernetics and OC.

Znimu wrote:Magnetic Shield : unlocked for Cybernetics 3 + Optimized capacitors 3
The prototype deploys a huge shield around him. Every units in this shield won't take any damage, but the Prototype will receive the damage. The Prototype can't die from the damage received here, but the Magnetic shield will be desactivated if the health of the Prototype reaches 1 or less.

Passive for Magnetic Shield (need a name) : unlocked for Cybernectics 3 + Optimized Capacitors 3 + Titanium Skeleton 3
Not sure yet what it will be, either I take the removed deflector shield which reduces every damage received by the prototype like the old immortal shield, or other idea to determine.

T.R.O.L. Protocol : unlocked for Titanium Skeleton 3 + Optimized Capacitors 3
The Prototype enters a hibernative stance, increasing his regeneration, but preventing to move or attack. Provides 20% chance to remove an ailment each seconde.
Increases life regeneration by 10, but drains energy over time.
"Let's take a rest."

Like I said earlier, This would require 9 levels to unlock both Magnetic Shield and T.R.O.L Protocol. Chapter 2 would be almost over by then in an average game. I still think T.R.O.L Protocol could replace the armored riflebutt at level 3 TS, Magnetic Shield could then be TS 3 + OC 3. Though one possible problem with doing this is people might not want to spec for Magnetic Shield and/or T.R.O.L Protocol if the dps build is more useful to the team, (Chances are this would be true outside of PMC mode) And thus the Prototype would suffer the same fate as tank Cyborg. Perhaps a solution will present itself.

Znimu wrote:Still to do :
- Magnetic shield (have I said 50 times that I don't know at all how to build this skill ?)

Will it be using the Sentry's Guardian Shield animation?

The skill might need to be reworked into giving a large damage reduction to allies within the shield, The skill would drain the Prototype's health and energy while active and he would take additional damage when an ally within the shield takes damage.

Znimu
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Znimu » Sat Sep 03, 2016 9:03 am

Actually this hook is more inspired by the hook of the Jedi caster in SWTOR.
Rope fixed, thanks to an enigma provided by the evil brother of DrSuperGood on sc2mapster :super:

The Jam immunity would be useless if not always activated. The Prototype may fires only with Cybernetics activated. Except if he prefers a high hitpoints pool and would go Titanium Skeleton.
To activate Optimized Capacitors is required to use the smoke grenade or the X-rays though, so the necessity to switch is still here. Or of course, if the player wants the mechanical bonus to regenerate his energy.

I had done a mistake, Hook will be unlocked for TS 3 + Cyb 3.

I think that the improved rifle butt (target armored) would improve the gameplay : Smoke grenade, the Prototype packs the undeads in it, activates TS 3 to get more health and improved rifle butt to pack still more the undeads around him ; then either the Prototype benefits of fire support from other players and the zombies die before to become dangerously close, or if he has his "pulse ability" he releases it.
Without the improved rifle butt, the Prototype would not be able to do that as soon as there is armored between the undeads.

I think that to unlock abilities with combinations of level 3 stances will provide an interest to level up the three stances. But indeed, it unlocks the abilities late.
So maybe I could unlock a decreased version of the skills (T.R.O.L. Protocol, Hook and Magnetic Shield) with lower levels of the stances, then provide improvements to the skills as the stances get higher levels. It would complicate a lot the class, but may be much more interesting.
For an example, T.R.O.L. Protocol could be unlocked for TS 1 + OC 1, but would heal only 5 HP /s. Then it would be improved to 7.5 HP /s with TS 2 + OC 2, then to 10 HP /s as initially planned for TS 3 + OC 3.

For the Magnetic shield, I don't know yet. I may study the sentry shield indeed to see what I can do.

Znimu
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Znimu » Sat Sep 03, 2016 1:26 pm

Little change to the Optimized Capacitors : I inverse Smoke grenade and Jam Immunity.
It allows to improve 2 times the smoke grenade.

Optimized Capacitors :
Activates the energetic stance of the Prototype. Improves mechanical by 3 per level.

1 - Smoke grenade

2 - Jam immunity (passive always activated, even if Optimized Capacitors is not activated)
- Improved Smoke grenade (bigger area of effect)

3 - X-ray (immune to smoke grenades)
- the Improved Smoke Grenades are thrown by a Grenade Launcher
- Emergency Battery : With cybernetics 3 activated, the prototype will charge his emergency battery if his energy reaches the maximum of energy of his suit. Then he can use this battery anytime, even without Cybernetics activated, to get 100 energy (amount to balance).

=====================================================================================

Still to do :
- Magnetic shield (have I said 50 times that I don't know at all how to build this skill ?)
- passive for Magnetic Shield
- Rifle butt can target armored (should work, still need to test)
- IEM discharge (need to test)

Znimu
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Znimu » Sun Sep 04, 2016 8:27 am

Actual State :

Titanium Skeleton :
Improves fitness by 12 per level.

1 - Rifle Butt
2 - Enhanced jump : independant from the regular jump, 8 range, can jump on cliffs but with long cooldown and 1s cast
3 - Improves armor by 3, rifle butt can target armored

Cybernetics :
Improves regeneration by 0,3 and move speed by 0,07 per level.

Level 1: Increases range by 4, Small increase in attack speed (10%).
Level 2: gives a 22% chance to deal a 2x critical hit, increases range by 1.
Level 3: Improves critical chance to 37% [crit stays at 2x], Unlocks charge.

Optimized Capacitors :
Activates the energetic stance of the Prototype. Improves mechanical by 3 per level.

1 - Smoke grenade
2 - Jam immunity (passive always activated, even if Optimized Capacitors is not activated)
- Improved Smoke grenade (bigger area of effect)
3 - X-ray (immune to smoke grenades)
- the Improved Smoke Grenades are thrown by a Grenade Launcher
- Emergency Battery : With cybernetics 3 activated, the prototype will charge his emergency battery if his energy reaches the maximum of energy of his suit. Then he can use this battery anytime, even without Cybernetics activated, to get 80 energy (amount to balance).

Critical Targetting :
Level 1: +7.5% Crit chance, +40% damage
Level 2: +15% Crit chance, +55% damage
Level 3: +20% Crit chance, +65% damage
Level 4: +22.5% Crit chance +75% damage
It stacks with the cybernetics bonus.

IEM Discharge :
The Prototype releases an IEM discharge around him, damaging and repulsing the area.
Each level improves the damage and the repulsion.

Doesn't damage allies, but repulses them.

======================================================================================

Other abilities :

Magnetic Shield : unlocked for Cybernetics 3 + Optimized capacitors 3
The prototype deploys a huge shield around him. Every units in this shield won't take any damage, but the Prototype will receive the damage. The Prototype can't die from the damage received here, but the Magnetic shield will be desactivated if the health of the Prototype reaches 1 or less.

Passive for Magnetic Shield (need a name) : unlocked for Cybernectics 3 + Optimized Capacitors 3 + Titanium Skeleton 3
Not sure yet what it will be, either I take the removed deflector shield which reduces every damage received by the prototype like the old immortal shield, or other idea to determine.

T.R.O.L. Protocol : unlocked for Titanium Skeleton 3 + Optimized Capacitors 3
The Prototype enters a hibernative stance, increasing his regeneration, but preventing to move or attack. Provides 20% chance to remove an ailment each seconde.
Increases life regeneration by 10, but drains energy over time.
"Let's take a rest."

Hook : unlocked for Titanium Skeleton 3 + Cybernetics 3
The prototype can pull an unit to him. Armored, massive excepted.
40 energy
5s cooldown

======================================================================================

Still to do :
- passive for Magnetic Shield
- Rifle butt can target armored (should work, still need to test)

Znimu
Posts: 1197
Joined: Tue Jan 19, 2016 8:25 am

Re: New class : the Prototype

Postby Znimu » Sun Sep 04, 2016 9:41 am

Emergency battery energy reduced to 80 energy.

Studying the sentry Gardian Shield. I can either reduce a fixed amount of damage on the allies in the area, or reduce by a %.
As I am not sure if a trigger can be triggered if the whole amount of damage is blocked, I think that I will go with 99% of damage reduced, so I can check if allies receive damage, and report the blocked damages to the Prototype.
This Magnetic Shield may need a lot of tests to get something fine.


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