Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

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Kami no Varou
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Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Kami no Varou » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:43 pm

For anyone knowing the game, I think the title is explicit enough.

As a reminder :
Monomolecular Wire, ability from Squad Designated Marksman :
"Instantly hit enemies in a line. Each level increases range and improves energy cost. Can hit air units (unlike flame discharge or grenades)." - Undead Assaul wiki.
Level 1 : 800 damage, 2s stun, 95 energy cost
Level 2 : 1200 damage, 2s stun, 90 energy cost
Level 3 : 1600 damage, 3s stun, 85 energy cost
Level 4 : 2000 damage, 3s stun, 80 energy cost
The radius width is almost as big as Fuel Discharge one, and hit on a higher range.

Fuel Discharge, ability from Flamethrower :
"Discharges pure, pre-ignited fuel at the target, dealing damage in a cone. Each level improves energy, fuel cost, and damage. Deals an additional 30% damage to armored units." - Undead Assault wiki.
Level 1 : 350 damage, fuel Cost: 15, energy Cost: 85
Level 2 : 550 damage, fuel Cost: 12, energy Cost: 80
Level 3 : 750 damage, fuel Cost: 10, energy Cost: 75
Level 4 : 1050 damage, fuel Cost: 8, energy Cost: 70

(as a comparison, Frag Grenade damages are 1 : 400, 2 : 650, 3 : 900, 4 : 1200)

... Am I the only one to feel that both unbalanced and unlogical ?
So Monomolecular Wire (screw that name ^^') deals WAY more damage, has higher range, hit air and stun targets hit. Energy costs are similar, radius are similar if you take into account the monomolecular higher range.
And yet... Mass killing is more the Flamethrower's role - as well as being front line to avoid friendly fire.

To me, either damage on Monomolecular Wire should be lowered, either (I prefer this option) the radius width should be tiny. That would making usage between teammates easier and makes more sense - as well as enphasize on the SDM role, which beside covering from afar is take down fastly higher threats.
Also, Fuel Discharge damage should be higher too on my opinion - or maybe apply instantly 5-10 Napalm stacks ? Right now it's pretty uneffective past Normal difficulty - I even wonder if it's worth putting a point in when Plasma Shield and Graviton Grenade could be so much more useful.
Yet, that amount of fuel cost is ridiculous - you could put none it wouldn't change a lot. It should cost like 3 or 4 times that amount. I know I'm saying it's pretty much UnderPowered, but that cost is really ridiculous.

Am I the only one to think along those lines ?

DragonS
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby DragonS » Wed Mar 02, 2016 5:56 pm

mono deal dmg to ally, same with grenade

fuel disch doesnt and its Deal dmg to air

+you missed cd time
"Deals an additional 30% damage to armored units" - sound strange... mb must be light/organic? or mb less to armored(unless they got wooden armor..)
but y - need less wide for mono, cus its 1 round and not wall of them
and y - fuel disch could have napalm skill bonus(just give some number of buff stacks to it)

about shield&gravy - they dont deal dmg
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Znimu
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Znimu » Wed Mar 02, 2016 7:57 pm

I agree with your feeling.

The mono wire is to much powerfull, and I know it because I play quite often the SDM. So I will try to reduce a little his width.

For the flamethrower, I don't know if add napalm stacks would help. It could help only versus biggest zombies. And not sure but I think that most Flamethrowers use it versus mass little zombies. And it one shots little zombies.
However I could reduce the cooldown, increase the amount of fuel used, and maybe add some energy required. What do you think about that ?

DragonS
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby DragonS » Wed Mar 02, 2016 8:51 pm

"napalm stacks would help" and "I could reduce the cooldown, increase the amount of fuel used" - looks good
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Znimu
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Znimu » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:43 am

So mono wire area of effect reduced to 1 (it was 1,5 width).
Discharge cooldown reduced to 18/17/16/15 (it was 20/19/18/17) and all energies required up by 5.

For the discharge, I have fixed the visual :)

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Billyum
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Billyum » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:00 am

As of right now the Fuel Discharge Flamer is the only build that is viable for Flamer on Insane/Nightmare [You just have to remember to get Whiz Kid!]. The Plasma Shield doesn't prevent you from getting aliments, So unless you want to get a whole bunch of broken legs and energy leaks tanking with it isn't a good idea outside of PMC mode. To be blunt the Grav Nade is garbage, Most bosses that you would want to use it on are immune to it [Except Thresher Maws]. Even then you have to max it for it to do anything worthwhile.

"Grav Nade is the only skill that is completely useless at level 1, Even the very basic zombies walk through it like it not even there"
-SlightlyOff

What really kills the Flamer is that Jav Gunner is straight up better than it. The Flamer beats the Jav Gunner in terms of AoE, Though it doesn't have Para Trap, AT rocket, Or the ability to make explosive charges. Late game the flamer is rendered almost useless by the fact that it can't kill anything stronger than a Hunter in a reasonable amount of time.

As far as the SDM's Monomolecular Wire goes, In Insane/Nightmare games whenever someone asked how they should build SDM the first thing that everyone would say is "Don't get more than 1 point into mono". The reason being that for every point that you put into mono is one less point that you could have put into Marksmanship, Marksman Skills, Rapid Fire, or even Soldier Skills. So each point you put into mono lowers your dps. The size of the wire is already quite small, Lowering it any further wouldn't make any sense. Where the Mono Build SDM was most used was in survival games [For the Root and the AoE damage].

Znimu
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Znimu » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:23 am

Well I have up the discharge. I may add soon some stacks of napalm with it. Still have to fix the napalm though.

And I think that mono wire was to powerfull, even if it was only in some situations. As mono wire seems useless in Nigthmare, it won't really change anything if his width is lowered.
I can't say for Nightmare mode, but every time I played SDM, I was quite chocked by the power of the mono wire. Instant kill mass zombies, and stun the bigger ones without the need to really target.
To reduce this width of course reduces his power, but increases the need of targeting, which makes sense for a SDM. And it will reduce too the size of the annoying backblast (until I try to fix it, not sure if it is easily doable).
But I will listen to any arguments agains this change.

Any idea to improve the grav nade or the Flamethrower then (as it seems a little weak for Nightmare mode) welcome ;)
I don't mean to make him overpowered, but ideas which could help him to be more usefull in highest difficulties.

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Billyum
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Billyum » Thu Mar 03, 2016 5:37 am

The biggest issue that I see right off the bat is that Scorp is already hard to hit with mono for most people due to its small hitbox, I personally didn't have this problem [When I tested this I hit scorp 15/16 times]. Making Scorp's hitbox bigger would cause it to drag mobs on to people much more often when it charges and would cause scorp to have many pathing issues as well. So if the mono wire is even smaller and the hitbox on scorp can't be made bigger without breaking it's balance then it would just be a whole lot harder to hit it.

Outside of survival mode I pretty much stopped getting mono just so that I could have more dps, My first thoughts are that the damage should be lowered to balance it, Though I would rather talk to some of my friends that use mono more often than I do to see what they think. Maybe something like radius 1 deals full damage, Radius 1.5 deals half damage.

Znimu
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Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Znimu » Thu Mar 03, 2016 3:06 pm

Would be quite complicated to add different damage for different radius.
When I test the mono wire locally, there is a kind of aim assistant (no not the item), it targets the nearest ennemy if he is not to far from the cursor. But I think it is not in battlenet. And no idea how I could add it.

Tell me what your friends think about it then.

Kami no Varou
Posts: 142
Joined: Fri Feb 19, 2016 4:22 pm

Re: Fuel discharge vs Monomolecular wire

Postby Kami no Varou » Thu Mar 03, 2016 4:35 pm

Well, I feel like I'm not playing the same class as you guys. I've never played Nightmare, but I've already played Insane, and to me, grav works pretty nice - granted it doesn't works on most annoying bosses but it would be too strong else. On the other hand, with 350 damage, even increased to 455 with Whiz Kid, you don't kill a lot of things beside the less threatening T3. Then, maybe you're maxing it to be effective. But I didn't even talked about energy gestion on Flamethrower - you basically don't have enough energy to use Graviton Grenade, Fuel Discharge and Plasma Shield - given the fact those abilities, although useful, aren't that powerful, that's pretty sad.
I basically have no idea why Flamethrower is ortiented anti-armored (both Napalm and Fuel Discharge), sounds pretty unlogial and uneffective to me, but I'm not gonna bitch on the whole MoS concept, I'm fine with it.
Yet, basically, just comparing strength of these abilities, there is a problem IMO. Not to mention their respective roles.
I mean, really ? Level 1 Monomolecular Wire is stronger than level 3 Fuel Discharge ? and more than twice as effective as Fuel Discharge at level 1 ? While Flamethrower is supposed to be first line ?
Granted, the coldown is also greater, but it doesn't balance it in any way. I mean, you're not supposed to use it many times on reduced windows anyway, it's effective enough so that one use every 30-40s ? (no idea what's his coldown) is enough to deal with problems. Not to mentions it sounds logical SDM can use it less often since it's not his role to do so, on the other hand, it emphasize nicely Flamethrower's one.
Of course you don't take it beside level 1 - it's already strong enough level 1.

But even if I take into account your perspectives : do you feel normal that you consider half a MoS abilities useless and that you take another one that is less effective that what other MoS can do ? I feel there's a problem with Flamethrower atm - not to mention the loss of Napalm is also annoying.
So actually, why would you pick Flamethrower on higher difficulties is he's so uneffective ?

Also, no one answered me about fuel cost - no one think it's ridiculous ? I think energy cost is too high and fuel cost is too low - I actually think the fact in itself it consumes fuel should lower energy cost, like you're spliting it.

To me, reducing Monomolecular Wire radius by 1/3 is really a good idea - I could even say it's a first step.
On the other hand, reducing Fuel Discharge coldown is just accepting his weakness - you shouldn't need to use it often if it was actually effective.

Now, if I'm the only one that it matters, so be it. I guess I might be too one-minded.

EDIT : Yeah, Fuel Discharge has the advantage it doesn't hit allies - I don't think I even need to comment that, but it's still a game, so why not. But, you should always aim to kill thinkg before they reach anyone rather than wait they surround someone to get more in one use. Sooo... That doesn't change a lot. In my first post I was rather talking about the fact SDM need to go first line in order to use Monomolecular Wire safely, which is not his role at all, that should rather belong to Flamethrower.
BTW, nice job with visual =)


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