Platoon Leader

Tell me what you think about UAR.
TNTPIZZA
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby TNTPIZZA » Sun Mar 20, 2016 8:31 pm

I think he lacks variety in skills, he's just a glorified rifleman just like scout.
IMO it'd be nice to take the grenade from these 2 classes and give them a new tree. Possibly a supply drop on PL and a recon drone for scout.
As for CFF... I'd like AWT instead :D. Or at least, have the artillery strikes not queue with the FSS"s, and/or have the PL and scout's CFF also get the bonus from IDF.

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Billyum
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby Billyum » Mon Mar 21, 2016 4:25 am

"The thing is, when I want to support my team DPS, I'd rather take Medic with aura SI (atm I only have BL) and go for enhancements"
While Aug medic is quite good [Especially when you think the other medics might not be that good], The PL when played right is a whole lot stronger. Your Auras give a constant buff to nearby team mates, You get amazing active support abilities, And late game you can deal a decent amount of damage on your own on top of it all. As Aug medic you wouldn't have Laser designate, Binos, Concentration, Or anywhere near as much damage [SS2 crits are only 2x].

"On a comepletely different topic, what do you think of Rifleman DPS compared to Cyborg and AR ? I heard say there was no point in taking Rifleman compared to other classes, but I quite question it."
In the original UA3 the VT CSM Rifleman was the king of dps. When Focus fire is active no other MOS even comes close to how much damage a Rifleman can do. The key to playing Rifleman [Or any MOS that has burst fire] is to toggle your burst. So you leave your burst fire off until you start shooting, Then you turn it on until your attack speed slows down from the penalty. At that point you turn off your burst fire so that you shoot at normal speed again, And then turn it back on when cool down allows. In short, whoever told you that dps Rifleman isn't good didn't know what they were talking about.

"I don't really know why it angers you Billyum, we are just speaking right now, nothing has been done. I try to get opinions, but kind of "I disagree." is not a constructive opinion."
When I made my first post I was in a hurry and needed to make it short. I just wanted to be on the record of saying that I didn't think that PL needed any changes. I will also say that I do not like the idea of MOSs losing skills and having them replaced with new ones [Other than the SFAAT which never should have got the LN rally point in the first place, As it was the result of a player that was terrible with SFAAT convincing DrSuperGood to "Make it strong enough for nightmare mode" without even thinking about if I would break the game or not]

"I think he lacks variety in skills, he's just a glorified rifleman just like scout."
I respect your opinion, But strongly disagree with it. While in terms of PL dps compared to Rifleman dps the playing style is basically the same, You have to keep in mind that PL's focus is on his active abilities and his Auras. Rifleman is just straight dps until late game, And even at that point its just Frags or Rifleman Skills which are no where near like the PL's Leadership Skills. By your logic you could also say that Flare/Nade Rifleman is just a weak Jav Gunner with ground flares.

While the Cavalry Scout and the Rifleman have three out of four of their skills the same, The Cav Scout's play style is much closer to Ghost or a recon heavy FSS. Cav scout is all about providing recon for your team and kiting zombies. Late game you can help a little bit with dps and while just like the Rifleman and PL it is all about burst toggle at that point, That doesn't mean that they're "Glorified Riflemen".

"IMO it'd be nice to take the grenade from these 2 classes and give them a new tree."
Why take away their skills? Just because they are underused doesn't mean they need to be replaced, You don't see me saying that Cyborg needs to have its cluster rockets taken away just because they're weak outside of PMC or Competitive mode. The skills you are suggesting could be tacked on as a 5th skill tree, However that could make Cav Scout and PL boring/frustrating if people expect you to get those skills instead of marksmanship. I would rather these skills be saved for new MOSs which I see the as the best way to add content as it doesn't involve removing content.

"Or at least, have the artillery strikes not queue with the FSS"s, and/or have the PL and scout's CFF also get the bonus from IDF."
I wouldn't mind the Cav scout/PL CFF being buffed as long as it isn't as strong as the FSS's CFF and doesn't give an incentive to waste the FSS's shells.

Znimu
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby Znimu » Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:13 pm

Thanks for this very detailed post, it explains a lot.
I did not know at all about the switch of the burst mode :hehe:
I just based myself on what I see. So the rifleman seems harder to play right than an AR (even if I think that an AR should switch off his incendiary sometimes to not damage allies or civilians, he is quite more intuitive than the Rifleman to play).
I understand now your vision of UA better. Told you that my vision could benefit a lot from yours :)
I have to integrate all that now in my thoughts.

I don't remember about the SFAAT, was his last skill just a passive before to become too a rally point ?

TNTPIZZA
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby TNTPIZZA » Sat Mar 26, 2016 12:16 pm

Billyum wrote:"I think he lacks variety in skills, he's just a glorified rifleman just like scout."
I respect your opinion, But strongly disagree with it. While in terms of PL dps compared to Rifleman dps the playing style is basically the same, You have to keep in mind that PL's focus is on his active abilities and his Auras. Rifleman is just straight dps until late game, And even at that point its just Frags or Rifleman Skills which are no where near like the PL's Leadership Skills. By your logic you could also say that Flare/Nade Rifleman is just a weak Jav Gunner with ground flares.

While the Cavalry Scout and the Rifleman have three out of four of their skills the same, The Cav Scout's play style is much closer to Ghost or a recon heavy FSS. Cav scout is all about providing recon for your team and kiting zombies. Late game you can help a little bit with dps and while just like the Rifleman and PL it is all about burst toggle at that point, That doesn't mean that they're "Glorified Riflemen".

My problem overall is having multiple classes having really similar skills and/or fitting the same role. There is a bit of that in ua3 with Scout, PL and rifleman. I'm well aware these classes have a different role and game play from each other, and because of that I think they should have more variety in their skills to highlight it, and bring some synergy.
Extreme example would be the Heavy Gunner from UAC compared to AR: overall same role and skills, HG doing better damage counterbalanced by heavy micro. Or the grenadier and rifleman in UA2.

Billyum wrote:"IMO it'd be nice to take the grenade from these 2 classes and give them a new tree."
Why take away their skills? Just because they are underused doesn't mean they need to be replaced, You don't see me saying that Cyborg needs to have its cluster rockets taken away just because they're weak outside of PMC or Competitive mode. The skills you are suggesting could be tacked on as a 5th skill tree, However that could make Cav Scout and PL boring/frustrating if people expect you to get those skills instead of marksmanship. I would rather these skills be saved for new MOSs which I see the as the best way to add content as it doesn't involve removing content.


Because they're useless in most modes, or useless after 1 point in it, makes them the obvious choice for replacement, but then i'm not against adding a 5th skill tree either. And by replacement it could involve making nade a SS2 skill or something.

What I don't want is having too many new MOS that may (or not) have different skills from each other but overall fit the exact same purpose, for ex in uac as large dps there is Heavy Gunner and Laser enf on top of AR and Rifleman (and depending on builds you can add Borg, Commando, Enforcer...)

CE and SFAAT is on the other hand a good example of classes that have a similar role (static defence) but sufficiently different skills to have high synergy: the SFAAT brings the high dps LN AR while CE helps with his barricades. It's possible to fit the role of static defence with one or the other fine, but the potential is highest when the two work together.

An idea how the scout could be better, without radically changing him:
Frag replaced with traps:
Lvl 1: graviton trap
Lvl 2: claymore & disarm
Lvl 3: Improved graviton trap, anti air trap
Lvl 4: satchel

Reconnaissance loses claymore, CFF and disarm, instead it gets a small drone like IS bot but with inventory to grab items instead of a gun, cam improvement over levels so that 3 are sustainable at a time in the end, possibly the "steel saber" upgrade so you can shoot while cloaked too.

For PL, I don't know, I think a supply drop instead of nade could help alot and build on its support role. Alternatively a skill that would cause some kind of ailments in zombies could be good, for ex preventing them to use abilities or something...

DragonS
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby DragonS » Sun Mar 27, 2016 5:31 am

"Because they're useless in most modes, or useless after 1 point in it"
im using clusters always when playing borg(en+wk ftw!)
like nades in survival ob;
roflman dont have problems with nade skill cuz mgl (problem with lvl req only... slowly boring lvling... in many pub games to hard to get it before game failed)

cff - just leave this ability for pros that could use it with 7.5-10 sec delay and hit what they planned

HG from uac req to much micro - to low ppl in eu server that actually can use his potential...
+its req hard working with doubtful benefit
and uac got another balance so its need higher dps for players instead of another ua3 maps

"Lvl 4: satchel"
"Reconnaissance loses claymore, CFF and ..., instead it gets a small drone like IS bot but with inventory"

and changing name to light engi..
mb just make engi version with rifle and leave cs as he already done?

funny engi ability:
rocket launch with a rope tied to it with an explosive over the entire length
(Obtained from the line caster to the target), undermining the team, if the caster is standing still or through several. seconds or more
her.jpg
her.jpg (124.66 KiB) Viewed 1221 times
- real version "of ability"..

PL have nade... do PL already have nade?... i dont remember... cuz always dont have enouth skill points in company mode for 4rd skill line, and prefer another classes in syrv/pmc...
about supply drop... in 5lvl of aura skill (same bonust as for 4 lvls aura on lvl5)
dead account to prevent non-game discussions with znimu

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Billyum
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby Billyum » Wed Mar 30, 2016 4:49 am

"I am trying to up the classes which need it. Which classes could need an improvement in your opinion ?"
Right now the JFO tree is quite weak for the FSS, Mainly the orbital strike and the fact that the AWT's rockets are bugged. I think that level 3 JFO should allow orbital strike to hit air units and level 5 JFO should give orbital strike +300 damage, Or something along those lines. On the other hand I feel that the CFF tree is a little too strong [Though only a handful of players openly agree with me on this]. The argument that I make is that max level CFF does almost as much damage as rail gun when you factor in how many shells it uses.

The FSS's Immediate Smoke and White Phosphorous use a lot of shells for what they do, Perhaps drop the shell cost for Immediate Smoke down to 1 shell and White Phosphorous down to 4-5?

"I don't remember about the SFAAT, was his last skill just a passive before to become too a rally point ?"
The Leadership skill let you recruit LNs and allowed you to recruit better LNs [ARs, SDMs, ect.], The Training skill improved your LNs stats and unlocked abilities. The fact that you would have to run around the map to find LNs to recruit is the biggest factor in why the old SFAAT was never used above hard mode, It did need buffed but not to the point that it is now.

"My problem overall is having multiple classes having really similar skills and/or fitting the same role."
I see it as being an issue of how many options players have, If you want to be DPS you have to chose between Rifleman, AR, SDM, and Cyborg. Only having four options gets boring and repetitive, As long as the classes are unique in their own way I don't see a problem with them having similar skills [Just look at how many classes have marksmanship and/or binos].

"CE and SFAAT is on the other hand a good example of classes that have a similar role (static defence) but sufficiently different skills to have high synergy"
I don't think this is a fair standard to hold other classes to, If you look at the game from the prospective of "Each class must be this different" then how many classes wouldn't have made the cut in the first place? I agree with you that classes need to be unique, But they also have to be similar in some ways so that they fit into the game smoothly.

Kami no Varou
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby Kami no Varou » Wed Mar 30, 2016 10:16 am

I agree JFO is a bit weak, but I completely disagree to buff Orbital Strike, that would be making JFO better than the rest - like a must have. Orbital Strike is merely made to support with its nearly instant cast time and high precision, if you want something effective, go for fast CFF. Else they would be overlaping.
Not to mention FSS is not made either to handle everything on it's own.
I think you sould just fix/buff AWT, cause it's pretty much the point in going JFO. You have a "Emergency Situation" button that relieves our team of some pressure if needed. With it being the skill that uses the most energy and that have the biggest cooldown, and althought it is the most versatile, we could expect it to be worth giving upon fast CFF and IFS skills.
Well atm the AWT + CAS combo can already handle a lot of situations, so I might be wrong.
As for the CFF, I have to say maxed CFF is pretty awesome, being able to easily deal tons of damage with low cost (30 is like REALLY low). Yet it's a lot of levels invested in it, so I guess it's fine. I think shell number might be a bit high though, as it's rare to even come close to deplete them if you don't waste them. I think that would be a good idea to limit a bit more the shells so it makes a compromise for its strength. Else you're completely overlaping a potential Javelin Gunner - except for Paralysis Trap maybe.
Althought, I agree CFF can take the role of both Railgun and White Phosphorous on it's own if well handled. (Well, not close to be as effective as Railgun though.) Maybe buff a bit those two ?
Also I feel like damage is not always fully applied, is it just me ? Or is damage reduced when on borders of shell explosions ?

Back on PL, I have a question : when do you take nades with PL ? Cause that's the point of me proposing SS2 Marksmanship, atm, no one takes grenades. You spend your 4 points in Leadership (cause that's the point of PL), then you have to spend 2+ point on SS and more on Marksmanship if you don't want to be useless. That's what I find sad, there's not much possibilities with PL (your choices are : in which order do I take SS and Marksmanship ? Do I spend one point in Plasma Grenade before completing Marksmanship ? but those are empty choices, that makes little difference).
I wouldn't be against making him a real support, and giving upon Marksmanship. Now, yeah, it still works atm.
But I'm still opposed to this redeploy ability, and I still think his Leadership tree is fine.
(BTW I use CFF way more often than once every 5 games - mostly cause I take down Morbiuses with it)

Znimu
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby Znimu » Sat Apr 30, 2016 9:22 am

Well AWT rockets are fixed now. :)

I agree with Billyum to allow the orbital strikes to hit air targets, lvl 3 seems fine.

About PL, I have played him in NM mode, and I kited to defend Thalim East. So only the aura and the heal were usefull, then a grenade from time to time. I still think he needs a little up or more possibilities, but I don't know how. As you seem to disagree with my redeploy idea, I sulk :triste2:
Kiding, a fifth tree could be interesting indeed.

About the SFAAT, following DragonS report I know that I need to remove prone and buffs when LN are fired. But so could the main issue be that the neutral LN are too strong ? I tend to think that the employed LN are very powerfull too. For an example, a SFAAT can put 2 barricades, send many grenades or just use very powerfull LN AR / Snipers. Should I increase the cooldown for the abilities of the LN too ?

DragonS
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby DragonS » Sat Apr 30, 2016 5:32 pm

"Should I increase the cooldown for the abilities of the LN too ?" - not
problem with ln's respawn delay - you get them to fast so dont care when they die much

P.S. to much spam about PL so dunno what about you discussing
dead account to prevent non-game discussions with znimu

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FrozenAngel
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Re: Platoon Leader

Postby FrozenAngel » Fri Jun 17, 2016 7:58 pm

Honestly... I feel like the Platoon Leader is in a good 'supportive' space. Medkit makes sense... leadership makes sense. He calls the shots. his ability to use Concentrate, to give a aoe damage boost of epic proportions is very in line with what I'd want/expect from a 'leader'.

The plasma grenade I feel is slightly out of place.

I don't know how you would balance it, but because his damage output is firmly in auto attacks, I would much rather replace Plasma with a Reinforcement type of ability.

Allowing him to call for backup, similar to or exactly like the LNs. I would think it could read like this:

Reinforce:

Level 1: Reinforcements: on use, a random Local National (SDM Javalin, Auto Rifle, etc) will appear on the map, radioed by the Leader, and proceed to the Platoon Leader if there is no Sfaat rally point. If there is an sfaat rally point, the LN will run to it.
Energy cost: 180
Cooldown:200

Level 2: Unlocks a secondary leadership aura, that only effects LNs

Level 3: Upgrades Reinforcements to call 2 LNs.

Level 4: Upgrades the secondary leadership aura slightly.


This is of course, just one idea... I don't intend for PL to step on the toes of Sfaat... but I feel that being able to call forth soldiers who the PL can directly command, would infringe on the Sfaat's roll, while only calling in uncontrolable allies, would be a more attractive option that adds to it's tactical use, as opposed to just standing in base and being an Aura totem...

Which he still would be, but with more ways to reinforce a base.


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