Nightmare Thalim Defence

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Nightmare Thalim Defence

Postby robert » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:58 am

Edit: rewrite this post after a few months.
For people trying insane+, Thalim defence is essential to success, it does not work for all people to do missions. It will be chaos and you will get overrun.
There is a replay on the forum where you can check how we defended the city in nightmare with 120+ civilians saved in valor.

Defence team composition: 2 Sfaats, 1 Engineer (second engineer can help, but it can go on missions), 1 DPS, Medic.

Sfaat skills points: 1 leadership, 2 training, 1 leadership, 2 training, 2 leadership. The sfaat that kite east should take IS + BL skill identifiers to boost all rallied troops. The second sfaat should stay west or south and take AR skill to be able to put auto rifleman west and south in the first few minutes.
Recruting. Sfaats must take the LN Auto Riflemen, with suppressive fire at level 6. Then it should get 2 javelin gunners. When you get leadership level 3 and 4, switch javelins to 1 Combat Engineer and 1 SDM.
Positioning. Put auto riflemen at each entrance for suppressive fire. Toggle rapid fire (right click on rapid fire) and prone it. Last auto rifleman can be positioned as is needed. Do the same thing with the rest of the troops.
Use control groups to move fast to each entrance.

First engineer should get barricades first, the second one turrets.
If you are engineer, choose WO rank and take Power User SI. It will give you 10 ecells and it affects your arc cell ability (90 energy instead of 60). You will have plenty of energy.
Put your sentry bot west to stun T1 when they get too close.

Engineer and Sfaat must kite the entrances, but if zombies break through gates, the barricades will keep the zombies busy until the defence team can engage.
You will get waves like 50 glutons, 10 cursed, etc and without kitting is very hard to survive.
All people in the team should know how to kite, if they have a big horde behind them to not run inside the city.
Only one person should be out, the kitter (a backup could stay inside ready to take over if something goes wrong)

Barricade positions and controlling zombies inside the city
When a zombie gets in the city, the priority is to keep it occupied as long as possible. You should keep it away for civilians and your dps troops.
Barricades inside must be placed in such a way to not lure inside zombies that did not passed the gates. But once a zombie makes a step inside the city it will go straight to the barricade. If you place barricades too close to the entrances, it will do more harm than good by luring all zombies inside.
The second thing is to link barricades. Barricades must be placed in such a way that once the zombie destroy a barricade, they will move to the next one.

Red: main barricades.
Blue: LN barricades
Green: secondary barricades, this should be used if there is a second engineer to make the kitting easier.
White: Sfaat ln positions
Yellow dot: rally point
Yellow lines: desired zombie movement.
Black: flamer turrets. In my opinion, flamer turrets have the highest effectiveness when a breach happened.
Map.png (718.07 KiB) Viewed 2711 times

East Entrance:
Place rally point on the hill next to the entrance.
The barricade won't be visible from outside, it will lure zombies once they go through the gate. After barricade is destroyed, the zombies will attack lns or move to the next barricade. This should give the defence team more than enough time to go and clear the zombies.
EastBarricades.png (735.73 KiB) Viewed 2700 times

West entrance:
Barricade on the road leading to center of the city. This will lure the zombies that enter through the west gate.
If you also place the south barricade well enough, the zombies will have to walk a long way and there is plenty of time to deal with them.
West.png (664.35 KiB) Viewed 2697 times

South entrance.
Same tactic.
South.png (683.74 KiB) Viewed 2697 times
South2.png (707.84 KiB) Viewed 2697 times
Last edited by robert on Sun Nov 13, 2016 1:19 pm, edited 9 times in total.

Kami no Varou
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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby Kami no Varou » Fri Aug 12, 2016 11:51 am

Very nice and interesting topic.

That makes me think again of my barricades placement, as I use to put them in places where zombies have the hardest time attacking (and so destroying) it instead of trying to attract as much of them and gaining as much time as possible for defenders (human or not). Those spots look pretty optimized.

Now, I'm not a big fan of placing them so they lure the zombies away when they arrive to contact of defenders. In fact I'm not really a big fan of the way barricades and paralysis traps attract zombies with such efficiency - looks pretty nuts to me. But it is effective and sometime very welcome and even needed on higher difficulties, so I probably shouldn't complain too much.

Now, why they're in the engineering tree instead of security (while they could be switched - let's say with the IS Bot or the Paralysis Trap, the first because it belongs more to engineering and the second because it fits less security given its short lifespan), I do not know.

I'm still gonna try those placements next time - and maybe try to come up with some of my own I might find.

(BTW, barricades also lure pmcs - at least some of them. Just sayin'.)

(it's pretty sad how each time I comment I end up complaining about something in the game, but I guess I can't help being a grumpy old fag')
Last edited by Kami no Varou on Fri Aug 12, 2016 4:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby robert » Fri Aug 12, 2016 2:46 pm

I was not a big fan of barricades either because I didn't know how to properly use them.
I experimented a bit and it didn't seem very useful, but I was astonished by the effectiveness of this placements when Crime used them.
You can still kite outside the gates and the barricades will not attract zombies, but when zombies will enter inside Thalim they will be busy for at least 10 seconds. In 10-20 seconds a turret with 2 guards and an LN Auto Rifle can do a lot of damage. And this gives enough time for a Player to reach the barrier under attack and kite the zombies.

I experimented with a few positions for barricades and is not easy to find inaccessible spots near Thalim that will make barricades very effective (Beside the spot at the east entrance, between the gate pillar and the hill that will stuck gourmands, that place should be used by sfaat with a LN engineer).

About your complaints, I don't know, it does not bother me personally, I don't really care about the realism of the game (I read somewhere a quote that sounded like this: "Don't pry for realism in a game where you shoot zombies with a plasma rifle)". It's a fantasy game in the future, I can imagine a story to justify this changes, (like something happened and engineer position was reworked to be more effective).

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby Zed » Fri Aug 12, 2016 6:47 pm

Why this rally point? Hill is so much easier to kite around. And you can probably place the barricade the same way there (since it is an elevated spot).

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby robert » Fri Aug 12, 2016 9:20 pm

Zombies will not see the barricade and will attack the civilians (might be wrong, have to test this).
There are civilians in that spot and they will be killed by fliers, spitters. You need a unit that shoots there to attract the fire from the civilians.
Most fliers that will enter the city from north will be lured to barricade.
Dps units will be located on hill, you don't change the kite path, the barricade is there for the case when zombies will enter through the gate to stall them from killing units.

I will try the barricade on hill, if it will attract zombies that would be a better position.

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby Billyum » Sat Aug 13, 2016 1:42 am

Very well done, Great rally point placement and attention to detail. Though there are a few things I should point out.

1. Another important thing to factor in with using barricades is if zombies will path near Cops/UT army/Civs/LNs, If they do then friendlies could take damage from bullet pen as the zombies walk by.

2. While unrecruited LNs are replaceable and can draw agro away from civs, Each one lost is a temporary loss in dps that could have been used to kill zombies faster.

A gift for you too, By the one and only.

Illidan92 wrote:Where do you guys get this garbage about "I assume it uses gravity..." and then proceed to write an entire paragraph about why it should do X and X. No, that is not the point. This is a video game. Stop trying to pry "realism" into a game where we shoot zombies with plasma rifles. Remember this is about balancing issues and such, and "realism" is not the primary factor in making a decision of whether or not an ability should hit air units.

Kami no Varou
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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby Kami no Varou » Sat Aug 13, 2016 3:35 pm

As I said, I'm fine with it atracting zombies, but the way you can set it behind u so zombies will walk just aside you without even noticying you're shooting them is something I find disturbing. I think they should at least attack someone entering their range on the path or something. Once again, without it, it gets very hard to defend the town at higher difficulties, so I'm not callingfor it being remplaced or something.

Basically, I just say I don't like it. I like to play engineer, and I'm the first to use it, but I don't like it.

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby Znimu » Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:44 pm

You better use the host of the forum to host pictures. Else they may disappear one day and the topics become not understandable.

It seems that already one disappeared.

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby robert » Sat Nov 12, 2016 10:25 pm

Yes, I will do that soon, good catch, I have some updates after playing harder difficulties and introduction of 2 engineers. I think I used a host because the server will allow me only only 3 images.

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Re: Hard Difficulty Engineer + Sfaat Thalim Defence

Postby Znimu » Sun Nov 13, 2016 9:42 am

Oh 3 pictures per post ? I will check to up then.

Edit : I have set 6 pictures per post :)

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